Healing Humanity with sangoma shaman john lockley
February 17, 2024
About Sangoma Shaman John Lockley
John Lockley is a fully initiated and ordained Sangoma (African Shaman) in two lineages from South Africa, the Xhosa and Swazi nations. His Xhosa apprenticeship took 10 years and he was foreseen in a dream by his teacher, MaMngwevu, a senior Xhosa sangoma from the same tribe as Nelson Mandela, who inivted him to be her apprentice. He was one of the first modern white men in recent times after Apartheid to be awarded the title of 'Ligqira Linkulu' by his Xhosa elders, meaning senior sangoma. His Xhosa name given by his teacher is 'Ucingolweendaba', meaning 'the messenger or bridge between cultures'. He has pioneered the bridge between modern western Psychology and traditional South African healing. For the last 13 years he has been facilitating 'Ubuntu' (Humanity) and Way of the Leopard retreats worldwide, teaching people how they can reconnect to their Ancestors, Spirit and the Earth. A passion of John's is teaching people indigenous African medicine to help them reconnect to the earth. He facilitates this through his 'Dreams & Tracking' retreats in the Kalahari Desert every year, and 'Leopard Warrior trails' in south Africa. John holds an honors degree in Clinical Psychology. He is also a Zen meditation practitioner with over 30 years of experience. He took Buddhist precepts with Zen Master Su Bong from South Korea in 1992. John offers private divination and healing sessions online. He is the author of the book 'Leopard Warrior', and audio teachings 'The Way of the Leopard', both published by Sounds True. He now splits his time between South Africa, Botswana (Kalahari Desert) and Canada.
Links & Resources
Website for Sangoma Shaman John Lockley: www.JohnLockley.com
Follow John on Social Media: Instagram, Facebook, & YouTube.
UPCOMING RETREATS
Dreams and Tracking Retreat March 2024 - LEARN MORE
Follow along with the episode transcript
Dr. Lotte | Intro [00:00:00] Welcome to Dr. Lotte: Science with soul, the podcast that transcends the boundaries between science and spirituality. I'm Dr. Lotte, your host, a physician, medical and psychic medium, ancestral healer, keynote speaker and award winning author of Med School After Menopause The Journey of My Soul. This podcast finds its roots in my own extraordinary life experiences through my personal odyssey. I have discovered our profound connection within a divine tapestry of existence. I have traversed the realms of illness, healing, and transformation, propelled by two near-death, out-of-body experiences that bestowed upon me the extraordinary gifts of clairvoyance, clairaudience, and clairsentience. Guided by this sacred calling, I embrace the pursuit of medical school at the age of 54. Prepare to be uplifted, transformed, and awakened to create a path to healing your own life physically, emotionally, and spiritually, by bridging the gap between science and soul.
Dr. Lotte [00:01:19] Today's guest is John Lockley, who is a fully initiated and ordained Sangoma Shaman from South Africa who apprenticed under MaMngwevu a senior sangoma shaman from the same tribe as Nelson Mandela. He was given a name meaning the 'messenger or bridge between cultures', and is now teaching online through The Shift Network as well as through his own website. John is also leading retreats in Africa.
Dr. Lotte [00:01:50] Welcome back to Dr. Lotte: Science with Soul. Today I have a very special guest with me and it's John Lockley, and he was actually a guest on this podcast in season three, which was last season. And for those of you who missed that episode, it was called Wisdom and Introspection with African Sangoma Shaman John Lockley. And this man is a very interesting man, and he has so much wisdom to share with everybody on earth, and I can't wait to see what is going to come out of this episode today! But for the people who missed that episode in the last season, can you just, briefly tell us, John, what is a Sangoma Shaman and how did you become one?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:02:44] Hi, Dr. Lotte, nice to meet you, thanks again for inviting me to the show. And, so a sangoma is a traditional African healer from South Africa, and we are traditional shamans. So traditional shamans, we get a calling through, through the dreams and through an illness which is called the twasa illness. So you don't decide to become a shaman or decide to become a sangoma. It's the spirits, the ancestors they call you. And, so we don't have a situation in South Africa where people want to sign up to become sangoma is, that wouldn't be a good sign because it doesn't come from a place of ego really, it comes from a place of calling. So you don't decide you want to become one, and often people don't want to become sangomas because it's so painful with the calling illness. And, and then all the ceremonies you have to do and the responsibilities and also you become very sensitive as an empath. So you feel the suffering of the world. And that's, it's a very difficult place to be sometimes.
Dr. Lotte [00:03:50] Yes, you had, So you had an illness and you had it so you had a calling. And is that typical for for people who become shamans, that it's through illness, that they become a shaman?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:04:01] Well , they get called to become a sangoma. So you get called to become a sangoma in different ways. So through the dreams, psychic experiences. But it's not your own idea. Like I want to become a sangoma. That is not the way you approach the elders. You normally approach. Often people approach the elders for divination because they're not feeling well. Maybe they're getting a lot of visions or, they experiencing a certain amount of ill health. So it could be physical ill health, or it could be emotional or psychological, or it could be like a lot of accidents and things that happen to people, which is unexplained. And this is what propels people to go and seek help with, with a sangoma for a divination and a divination is where they read your soul, read your spirit, and um, and that's when all the magic starts to happen. So for me, I mean, my my story is quite long because I had experiences when I was a baby and then a teenager and then later on. So this is why I wrote a book called Leopard Warrior for those folks who are interested to know the full story. But, the abbreviated version would be that, I was I was receiving, experiencing a lot of illness in, in from about the age of 16 in terms of, dreams and things like that and strange phenomenon and, and, and this got got stronger and stronger until I was in the South African Army as a military medic. I was conscripted as a medic at the age of 18. And, and then I had a number of experiences and, and then I was in a Zen retreat for three, four days, and, and I was bitten by ticks. So I got tick bite fever. And at the end of that, the retreat, I had a dream where, a sangoma approached me in the dream, and we spoke, and I asked the sangoma to please teach me about suffering and teach me about healing and, teach me about nature. And, asked him very strongly in the dream states because I had just lost one of my patients who was only a few years older than me, and, I was a medical orderly, and I was working and in, like, intensive care, and I nursed this, this young man for about six weeks, and then he died. And I used to feel his heartbeat and his pulse every single day. So it was very, very painful for me. So in the dream state, I asked this sangoma man to show me about how to heal, how to heal people who are in a very difficult state, how I can connect with their soul. And the reason is, is because every day my patient's mother would come to me and ask me if if her son was going to live or die. And, and I said he was going to live, but I knew he was dying and I was only 18, so, I wanted to I wanted to learn a form of healing where I could connect to the soul and spirit of of someone, regardless of whether they they could speak or not. I want to connect to this spirit so that if I was ever in a situation like that again, that I could help the person's family, find some kind of healing. So anyway, so I had this dream, and then in the dream, the the sangoma man said to me, in my culture, in my culture, if you if you want to become a sangoma, you, you get very, very sick. That's the way it works in my culture. And he said, so if I'm going to take you on as my apprentice, he said, you, you're going to get very, very sick and come close to death, because that's the way it works in my culture. And this is all a dream I'm sharing with you. So I said to him, please teach me. I've I'm only 18 years old. I've lost one of my patients. I also lost my beloved dog recently. I'm in South Africa. It's apartheid. It's civil war. I'm in this military hospital and all around me all I see is is suffering and pain and death. So I said, if you don't teach me, my life is over. I said, it's already over. You know, if you don't teach me. So he said, okay, okay. He didn't say anything more. And I asked him three times. And at the end of that, like I said, I mentioned to him that, I was only 18 in my life. I already seen so much suffering. And then the next thing I saw an image of the next five years that was going to happen. And and it did happen. And then the next thing I saw, a number of of visions he he showed me. Me, very clear, as if I'm looking at you right now. And then all those visions came to pass. And then when I woke up from the dream, I had all these boils on my legs. And I never had boils on my legs when I went to sleep. So it was very, very strange and very magical. And I was actually happy when I saw the boils, because I knew that this sangoma man had accepted me to become his apprentice. So even though it was a dream state, it was very, very real. So I went to the hospital because I was working there. I started my my shift and I went into into the emergency section because of my boils for them to check it out. And they said I had contracted tick bite fever and none of my friends on that zen retreat, had got bitten, I think by even one, tick bite. So it was very strange. And then for the next seven years, I got one illness after the next. But with the illnesses also came a lot of psychic experiences where I was actually connecting to the sangoma man from my dreams, and he guided me, and then he guided me to, to South Korea. And, I trained in South Korea with Zen Masters, and then he guided me back to South Africa, and I, I voted for Nelson Mandela. Nelson Mandela became president. Then it was a democratic South Africa. So then I could go and find a teacher, a sangoma teacher, because, being a white man, we we were not allowed to just go wandering into African areas and vice versa. African people couldn't just wander into white areas or towns unless they had a pass. Now that's all changed, of course, but I was brought up in the 80s and that was my reality. So, when Mandela came into power, it was it was powerful for me spiritually because it meant that I was now free to work with African healers without any stigma, without any, chance of being arrested as well. So I, I went back to university because I dropped out of university because of ill health, then I went back and, I'm shorting the story now. I approached one of my psychology friends who was, interpreter and he was a Xhosa man and asked him if he could organize for me to have an interview with, with a single ama to have a divination. And he agreed. He went looking for someone, and he said that he, his son, had been quite sick. And there was a wonderful and very wise lady who had healed his son. So he asked her if, if we could go and have a divination with her. And he didn't mention that I was a white guy. So she said yes, no problem. So then the next day or a few days later, we went for, for a divination, and, and that night's my teacher to be had a dream where she saw me in the dream, she said she was approached by the Great Spirit uThixo who came to her and said that she needed to prepare herself to to train someone to become a full sangoma, to become a senior sangoma like herself. And. And that she must be aware that this person who's going to become her apprentice is going to come from another culture. And, she said this dream was in upupha mhlophe, so it was a white dream, and it was very strong. And and the voice in the dream said a few times, be prepared this person who's going to be your apprentice is coming from a different culture. So that day, the next day when I, I went to her house and I saw her sweeping the yard in the front, she seemed very stern and she looked up and she saw us, and there was this sense of gravity and gravitas around her. And then we entered her property, and she looked up and she saw me. And my Xhosa friend, and, she said she knew that I was the one that, the Great Spirit sent in her dream. So then we sat down and she did a divination, and she went into trance, and she started speaking in the Xhosa language really quickly, and like I say, she went into trance. And then she looked at me and, and she went through the illnesses that I'd gone through over the last seven years in greater detail. And this was the first time I'd ever met her. And then she stopped. And she looked at me. And she said, "What took you so long to come to me?" And I said to her, "Apartheid." And she said, "Ahh enkosiam." And then she spoke a bit more closer. And the translation is. "Oh, God. Oh, God, I'm so sorry. We almost lost you. You know, you almost died from the illness." And then this tear went down her face. And in that moment we looked at each other. There was this just pure love. There was no man and woman, black and white. And there was none of that. In this moment I looked into eyes and I just trusted her. And it was just love. And she just wanted to help me. And it was the most incredible experience. Looking into her eyes. And. And then the next thing she said to me, "Do you want to become my apprentice?" And I was like, so shocked. I said, "What does it mean? To to become a Sangoma. To become a Sangoma apprentice?" And she said "To become a sangoma means the ancestors are going to work through you in different ways, and you're going to be able to heal people in all different ways. And also, your gonna stop being sick. You're going to become much stronger. And also you're going to become a great trance dancer." So you can imagine there I was, you know, 20 I don't know, 26, 27 years old. I'd experience a lot of heartache and a lot of illness. And I felt the magic of this moment, looking at this traditional African woman Xhosa woman and feeling her love and, and also smelling the herbs in the room and noticing all the, the African, the skins of animals, and I felt that I was in this earth shrine. And I also felt, as I looked into her eyes, that she knew how to heal the human soul, and she knew how to heal my soul. And there was just a sense of trust. And I just said to her, "Okay, yes, I accept." And then she said, "Wonderful! Okay, well, tomorrow I want you to come and I'm going to give you your first beads, which is a sign that you are going to be my apprentice. So she gave me my first white beads, the sign of being a sangoma. And, so that's how the story progressed. And it was. I'm still in touch with my teacher and her husband, and we very, very close. I'm like one of her children when I've adopted, I'm a her adopted son. And because of that, I've learned the language and not just the language of isiXhosa, but also the language of dealing with ancestors and spirits, which is a language that is only passed on to apprentices. And so it was a huge honor. Also difficult and uncomfortable because of the things I've seen and experienced, but it's it's motivated me in my life to, to to show the love of African spirituality and the love of African diviners and sangomas. Because as I was growing up in the, in the 80's, in the 90's, South African spirituality was demonized and people were terribly, judged as African diviners. You know right up to the present day, I mean, nowadays it's much better. But, the, the respect of shamanism, sangomas has been seen as shamans and given that kind of respect that you see in Europe, in America, it's not it's not quite there yet in Africa and in South Africa. So a lot of traditional healers, a lot of traditional sangomas, struggle to make a living in South Africa today. And there's a lot of misperceptions and, miscommunications and ideas around who they are and what they do. So this is part of my impetus. So my, my, my inspiration and motivation to help spread awareness about who sangomas are, and what is their work so that they can stand as traditional healers and shamans in the world stage with dignity and with love.
Dr. Lotte [00:17:33] Such an incredible story. And how many years did you spend in that culture and learning about how to be a sangoma. Was it like one year, two years, ten years?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:17:47] I apprenticed for ten years. So it was an intensive ten year period. And um, and now I still spend time with my elders doing ceremonies. So it's been 25 years. So now, wherever I am in the world, I always go back home and spend some time with my elders, and we do ceremony together. It's not as arduous and as intense as it was when I was in training, but I still check in with them and stand with them once a year, if I can, you know. But it is, you know, I do make an effort to do that.
Dr. Lotte [00:18:21] Yeah. And now, if I understand you correctly, your job is to bring these teachings to the rest of the world.
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:18:30] Yes. So now I teach people how to connect with their own ancestors, with their own spirits, and in doing that, it also means to connect to the earth and with the animal world. So I run these retreats in the Kalahari Desert in Botswana, and also in South Africa, where I teach people indigenous African technology. So that means inner tracking, and outer tracking. So inner tracking, is connecting with ancestors, connecting with dreams, connecting with your own uMoya your own uMoya means the wind of life and means your soul, that part of you that doesn't die. So that's a it's a big thing. So how do we do that in today's modern era? So that's part of the inner tracking. And then the outer tracking is teaching people how to learn about animal communication, interspecies communication, how to follow the tracks in the sand and to know this is an eland, this is a lion, this is a leopard, this is a warthog. What do they look like? How do you follow them? So it's an education in indigenous African medicine. Indigenous African technology, I'll say. So I run these retreats in South Africa, I mean in the Kalahari, in Botswana every year. And they last about seven days and it's 7 to 10 days. And we are often joined by Sand Bushmen who come and share they, they, they skills in terms of tracking and plant medicine and, and then I create and I create a shrine and earth shrine in the, in the bushveld. And that's where we go every day in silence. And we sit and I teach people the way I was taught by my elders. So it's it's a very special, it's a very special retreat. It requires commitment, concentration and the will to want to connect to your own ancestors and your own silence, your own soul. And as we do that, then we come, we become better human beings because we've become more empathic and more compassionate, and we bring that energy into our communities, and then that is to hope for the future. So each person coming on the retreat is is the hope for the future. It's not like it's not just reliant on me as a teacher or on the Sand Bushmen people. So one of the ancient philosophies of Southern Africa is the philosophy called ubuntu. Now ubuntu means humanity, but it's it speaks about a circle and it speaks about human beings existing in the circle, a bit like being in a beehive, where we are all connected and interconnected with one another and also with nature. So the first job of the human being, in terms of ubuntu is for them to make a decision to connect to their own uMoya, uMoya means the wind. So to make a decision to connect to your own soul, it's that part of you that doesn't die. And once you have that decision, I want to connect to that part of me that doesn't die, I want to connect to my own juea da vie, you know, why am I alive? Once people make that decision, then the next decision, the next focus, is to make an offering to your ancestors, those people who created you. And as you do that, then you start to connect to the circle of of man, the circle of humanity. And then as you do that, you also start to connect to your own spirits and, and then the circle starts to get more intricate, and then we face outwards and we face nature, and then we listen to the sounds of the bush and the sounds of the birds, and see how is nature and the wilderness calling us to sit with them, to help them, to watch them, to observe. How is nature then calling us? But you know, we can't we can't listen properly to the animals and to the birds if we can't listen to ourselves. So the first listening is, can you hear your own heartbeat? Can you hear the wind inside of you? If all you can hear is pain and and worry and wanting and desire. Then, okay, that's what you're hearing right now. But you need to concentrate and you need to go deeper. And then this is the journey. This is the journey. And sometimes it's uncomfortable, but that's part of life. We have to embrace discomfort in order to connect with magic. And I remember, something that was, was quite, painful for me. I was in the Kalahari, and then I was in the Okavango desert and, not desert, sorry, Okavango Delta. It's not a desert. It's, it's behind me, it's very fertile and very beautiful. And I was going with a friend to scatter my father's ashes. So it was very, very painful. And we were going into the Okavango Delta. Searching for a beautiful place to do it. And we saw the most incredible wildlife. We saw flocks of animals and herds of buffalo and elephants. And as we were going, I also saw a pride of lions, of about 20 lions was the most incredible sighting. And these lions were just stalking. They were stalking an animal that was stalking a herd of, of impala, and, and as we got closer to the lions, we got to see them very, I mean, we were very close, literally, like maybe 5 or 10 meters away from the lions. We were in a Jeep and we were driving along, and I remember looking into the face of one of the lions, and he was not having a good day. He had scars. He was like panting. He was thin. And I turned to my friend who is one of the trackers, and he was he was with me in the Jeep and I said, "What's happening to these lions? I thought, there's so much food around, but they looked like they're suffering." He said, "There is a lot of food but are struggling at the moment to actually catch some of the animals because the animals are moving so quickly and they desperately need some food, they desperately need to have to make a kill. You know, so the whole pride can eat." And I was so struck to see these lions being so powerful and so strong, but also so vulnerable and very clearly in a state of discomfort. You know, as I looked into their eyes and I saw the scars and their faces and I could see that they were hungry and I felt, okay, this is the this is the condition on earth. You know, we have to balance our discomfort and our comfort levels. We have to balance that. And we also have to sometimes accept an order for me in order for us to experience magic, we have to sometimes also go through hardship. And go through pain and discomfort. And the modern person sometimes doesn't want to do that. We want to circumnavigate that. But traditional people, elders always teach us the importance of feeling our discomfort. Make doing a prayer to the great ones. And moving through that. But to ask for instant gratification, is not the way forward and it's not going to help the environment, and it's not going to help us connect to our soul and to also help us refine and transform our souls so we can become better human beings. So this is a big teaching, and one of the teachings that I want to share today, and a teaching that I've had to go through, and I continue to continually go through it. And that is that teaching of moving through your own discomfort and not expecting suddenly to feel wonderful and not expecting instant gratification or instant enlightenment or instant spiritual wisdom. And when folks join me going to the Kalahari, I often say to them, the weather teaches us. Because no matter how wonderful the land is and the animals, sometimes it's hot. And that heat can be oppressive and really uncomfortable. And I always, I always invite people to just breathe into the heat and accept it and see that is is like a barrier of discomfort that you have to move through so that the beauty of the wilderness opens up. To suddenly expect someone to have air conditioned room and I wanted to be completely perfect for me. I say, don't expect that. Please, because that's not reality. We can be walking into, breathe into it, let go get a face cloth or something that can cool you down. And then also notice how do the animals deal with the weather? So outside weather where you feeling uncomfortable is sometimes a good thermometer for inner weather where we feel uncomfortable, like maybe we feel depressed or sad, or low self-esteem or whatever the inner weather conditions are. We have to navigate that with the same level of discernment and skill that we manage the weather outside.
Dr. Lotte [00:28:20] And so these retreats, they sound just wonderful and like a miracle. I mean, it sounds like such an adventure and so many teachings, really a life changing trip for the people that that join you on these retreats. Do you have any retreats coming up this year?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:28:40] Yes I do. I have, I have retreats of their dreams and tracking the Kalahari, which we doing currently, and I'm also having the Leopard Warrior Trails, which are going to be happening in May in South Africa. So there's still spaces available. And and if people want to join me, they need to they need to apply via my website at JohnLockley.com. And, we are still taking bookings and that'll be happening at the end of May. So it's basically eight days. We take people into the Bushveld in South Africa, and three days of it is going to involve walking and sleeping around a fire. So it's a bit different from dreams and trekking, in the sense that there's three days of backpacking where you carry your gear on your back and then you sleep around the fire. But it's also extremely beautiful because you get to hear the sound of the, of the lion at night or the sound of of the buffalo or the elephants, and you feel that vibration through the air, through the land and through the soil beneath you, and, nothing, nothing can replace that. No video or movie or anything like that can replace the smell and the sound of hearing a lion roaring in the distance. And and then also to be guided by highly, highly trained trackers who teach as they're walking. They don't just teach with words, they teach with their body language. So I'm very lucky with the team of people I'm working with, they are highly trained and incredibly sensitive, bush trackers and safari rangers and, one of the with people I'm working with in South Africa is a man called Massimo Boosie, and, he's actually one of the people that helps to train people to become safari guides and rangers in in South Africa. So it's an incredible opportunity for people to learn and to pilgrimage and to develop their connection with animals. So animal communication, interspecies communication. But also, where are you with all of this? How you connecting to your your dreams and to your ancestors? You know, this seems like a lot for folks when I'm saying but it isn't, it happens in a very seamless, gentle way. Part of my work is teaching people to to let go of all the knowledge that you have, let go of everything you think you know. And that whole Zen training of less is more and learning to empty yourself so you become an empty vessel rather than a vessel that is overflowing with information. The job is to learn how to empty yourself. So listening to the sound of the birds, not looking at your phone, listening to the sounds of the animals and connecting with your sense of smell. So those are the two areas we'll be working with a lot when are going for the walking, walking through the Bushveld in South Africa would be connecting to the sense of smell and hearing. So we're not going to be talking much in those three days. We'll be walking, there'll be a bit of talking, but it'll be mostly listening and smelling, you know.
Dr. Lotte [00:31:56] And I'm assuming that, that space is limited on these trips.
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:32:01] Yes. Yes. But mostly when people really want to do it, we we find space for them. So. I always find if someone really wants to do that, you know there's space available. And right now there is the is space available. So, yeah. So people are welcome to join us.
Dr. Lotte [00:32:17] But it fills up quickly, I'm sure once people because you don't take that many people. Right? Is it 20 people or?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:32:24] No. We take we take seven, seven people.
Dr. Lotte [00:32:28] Seven people. Yeah. So that's going to fill up very quickly! Right?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:32:33] Yeah.
Dr. Lotte [00:32:34] So.
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:32:35] Depends! Laughter.
Dr. Lotte [00:32:36] Right! And so what do you think about the, the situation in the world today with the war and greed and everything that we seen? How can we change that? Is there anything that people can do to, you know, make a difference in the world, make it a better place?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:32:56] You know, it's very sad. You know, it's very sad. What's happening? I remember learning about the Second World War, you know, in the 80's and, at school and it was it was a big thing, you know, we really went into it in depth. And now when I see what's happening in Ukraine and also in Gaza and with such high, sophisticated, such sophisticated weaponry where people can be blown up in such a short space of time and then massive destruction of property and animals. It's so sad. It's like, haven't we learned as a human race about the pain of warfare? And haven't we learned this lesson? So it sounds like we have to relearn it and relearn and relearn it. So I remember a story of Nelson Mandela I want to share with everyone. So Nelson Mandela, for those who don't know, was, a very powerful, very powerful, politician and human rights activist in South Africa, and he became the first Democratic president in 1994, and he was in prison for 27 years because of his beliefs and, so incredible man. Incredible man. So these two, these two wonderful stories I have about Nelson Mandela, the the first is the one I want to share because it's very relevant where he was interviewed by the head of the Palestinian Youth League and the head of the Israeli Youth League. And, I'm sure people can do a Google search on this. I think it might be a YouTube video with him. And I remember seeing the interview and being blown away, in the interview they they both asked him, they said to him, "How did you, Mr. Mandela? They said, how did you bring peace to South Africa? How were you able to heal that split between the apartheid government and the ANC? How were you able to work together despite all these years of of oppression and pain and bloodshed?" And he said, "Well, it wasn't easy when I had my meetings every, every day with a head of the, the NP, the National Party, who was, president of the country at the time was F. W. de Klerk. So every day we'd have these meetings and we would shake hands and you'd ask me how I was, and I'd ask him how he was, and then we'd have a cup of coffee, and then we'd go into our negotiations. And during those negotiations we had fights. And you'd argue and fight and argue. And then at the end of the day, we'd shake hands and we would say goodbye, and and then we'd go home, and then the next day would start again." And, and then they so intrigued by this, you know, both these young people, the Israeli person and the Palestinian. And they said again, "How did you mean how did you, you know, carry on like this?" And he said, "Well, both me and F.W. de Klerk knew that it was a lot was riding on us getting along and treating each other with respect. And we both knew that if we didn't treat one another with respect, and come up to some amicable agreements, we knew that everything would be lost in South Africa. And we couldn't afford that to happen. So we treated one another with respect. And we didn't agree with one another. We often disagreed. But we held that respect for one another." So, it's the essence of conflict. If you looked at martial arts, the greatest martial arts in the world. The main tenet of it is resting on respect. So when you start, in a dojo, say with karate and you're going to have a competition. The two people who are about to go into competition, they would bow to each other, and then they would spar and they would fight and then at the end they would bow to each other. And that is the essence of conflict. The same with boxing and really, really good you know, a good sporting achievement or a good sporting competition, even boxing, which can be very brutal sometimes the people would bump the gloves, and then they would start. And then at the end they would bump gloves again. And that was just a mark of respect for the opponent. So this is what is lacking in both these wars that we have seen. And that lack of respect obviously happened because something happened. There was a trauma that happened. And, but at the same time, there's been a great loss of life and a lot has happened on both sides. You know, whether it's the Palestinians and Israelis or again, with the Russians and the Ukrainians. The people still need to come together with that, with that mark of respect for each other and, and realize that there's a lot resting on this much bigger than themselves. So this is what I'd like to see happen. I'd like to see mutual, respectful people come in where people also accept their differences, and also that sense of not judging one another. You know, I'd really love to see that. And the way we can come into these places as human beings who people who, who, who don't, who aren't politicians who maybe feel they don't have a lot of power. We still have responsibility when we see war like this in the world, to look at our own shadows and look at how are we not respecting our opponent. And sometimes your opponent might be someone in your family that you really love, and you get very angry with them. And how can you just respect one another then just be sweet and just see the war happening around the world as a core for all of us as human beings, to look at conflict in our life and how can we change that conflict or look at it in a different way, like maybe like martial arts, where you're not agreeing with someone but you sparring with them. So remembering that sense of bowing out of respect, respecting the opponent, and then also respecting that opponent inside of you. You know, respecting that shadow inside of you, that part of you that maybe you don't like. And that brings me back to a story. When I was in South Korea and we were about to be to receive a Dharma talk by the Grandmaster. The Grandmaster was a man called Seungsahn, and he was seen as a great one of the greatest Zen masters in recent time, and is also seen as the Shaman Zen Master of South Korea. And this was in the 90's, and I remember him giving us a Dharma talk, and the snow was falling in South Korea and was really cold outside. And, and he started off by saying, "Does anyone have any questions?" And everyone kept quiet. And then someone said yes, they do have a question. And he said "Mmhm. What is the question?" and I think it was someone from California and they said "Sir what do we do when the devil comes knocking?" And he goes "The devil?!" And they've said, "Yes sir. What do we do when the devil comes knocking?!" And it was like, wow. It was like a very strong question. And then Seungsahn, we used to call him. He said, "The devil!" And he starts laughing. "Ha ha ha, The devil." And he says, "When the devil comes knocking, you offer him a cup of tea. Of course you offer him a cup of tea." So what does he mean by that? Offering the devil a cup of tea? It doesn't mean agreeing with the devil, but he also doesn't mean that you try and obliterate and attack the devil. He means sit down, and he means bow out of respect, and just have a sense of equanimity. Which means listen. Be patient. Don't judge. Wait. Watch. Listen. Wait. Watch. Listen. Offer the devil a cup of tea.
Dr. Lotte [00:41:34] And how can we get you into the White House and teach the politicians? Laughing. Right? There's just so much greed in the world. How can we all, how can we all make it a better world? There's so many politicians and people out there that, are not ready to listen, they're not ready to bow, and listen to the other, the other party, but the other country or whatever conflict there is that's out there, it's so difficult to, to teach these people. How do you get to these people that are in charge of running nations around the world? How do we make them listen to each other?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:42:17] We have to start listening to ourselves first. We are in charge. You know, so often what happens in the human race, we blame. We blame our politicians. We blame our government. We blame the people in power. We blame our CEOs. We blame, we blame, we blame. What broke the back of apartheid wasn't just Nelson Mandela, what broke the back of apartheid was women and children who were dancing and singing in front of tanks. Those are the ones that broke apartheid. And I remember that moment in the 80's when I came back from school, and I remember watching the 6:00 o'clock news and seeing all the all these soldiers, standing in front of a whole crowd of women and children, and the women and children are not budging. And they were not afraid of the guns. They were not afraid of the tanks. And they chanted in front of the, the the soldiers. And I ended up learning those chants that became a Sangoma. And I remember that was my first Sangoma teaching, watching these men, these women and children dancing in front of tanks with no fear. They were taking the power into their hands. And later on there was a there was a whole documentary on a called Amandla, which means power, but it means spiritual power. And I remember this moment happened as I was having my cup of tea and my sandwich, and I was 14 years old, I remember this moment where I looked, and I saw all these women and children like you say danced in front of the tanks. And then there was the silence, and then there was this young boy he was about my age, and he put his hand in the air and he just went like this "Amandla!" And his voice had broken. It was very strong. And then the whole the whole crowd of people said, "Nga wethu". And then again he went, "Amandla!" and everyone went "Nga wethu". There was a response, and it was like a gunshot as everyone wen "Nga wethu". And then the third time he with "Amandlaaaaaaa!" And then the whole crowd went "Nga wethu". And Amandla means power and strength and not just pound strength in terms of physical force, but also means spiritual power and strength. And Nga wethu to means to us. And as the whole crowd went away too, it was like. It was like. It was like a shot was like a bullet going through the whole space. And you could looked at the soldiers and the police, many of whom were young conscripted soldiers. They looked afraid, and I had pity for them. But when I looked into the eyes that 14 or 15 year old who put his hand up, I felt ashamed to have white skin. And it also felt very proud to be South African. And nowadays, you see, look, what's happening in the news in South Africa is standing up for what's happening in Gaza, where a lot of Western countries aren't. And it's part of that Amandla spirit of standing up for injustice and, and doing what's right. So each human being has that responsibility to connect to their own Amandla, their own spiritual strength and the way that you do that, is you make a decision to connect to your own soul, it's your own uMoya. So when I saw this young 14, 15 year old guy, like I said, I felt ashamed to have white skin and I felt proud to be South Africa. And then the third thing I felt, I want to learn. I want to learn the spiritual culture, the African spiritual culture that makes women and children fearless in the face of extreme violence. And this is what I learned. A few years later, when I became a military medic and my first job was helping Special Forces soldiers, many of whom were black soldiers, and they came from the frontlines of Angola, and they were also part of a lot of skirmishes we had, like in Mozambique and South Africa and all over. And then nursing them and looking after them, I learned how they connected to that Amandla spirit. They started teaching me and so this is the teachings that precipitated me to receiving this calling to become an African shaman in The Sangoma. So it's very it's very delicate and it's very strong and it starts with the heart and soul of each human being. You know, each human being is responsible for the governments that we have and it means each person needs to stand up. Respect your opponent. Do what is right for you and your community, and things will change. You have to believe that.
Dr. Lotte [00:47:20] Such good advice. That's what I say to people too. We can only change the world by healing each person, each person has to step up to that plate to create healing for themselves. But it's not until we tune into our own soul like you're talking about, that we can really create the healing because we're all connected to everything else through the earth itself, to people, to animals. But each person, when we heal, brings healing to other people. Because now you're, right?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:47:48] That's right.
Dr. Lotte [00:47:48] Because you change with that healing. So you then resonate in and trained differently with other people because you carry that healing. But I know also you, you do these chanting and, you have these amazing, rattles that you showed me before we started this podcast. Would you be willing to share, you know, end this podcast with, some chanting and rattling?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:48:16] Yes, I'd love to! I'd love to. So, thank you very much. So. So the song that I want to sing is just, it's just a song of of there's a chant in engoma and engoma is, sangoma chant. And it's always it's got a particular rhythm to it and the focus is to help people connect with their ancestors, with their spirits around them, and to help people connect to their own uMoya. That wind that goes through you, that connects you to that time to space of who you are, of why you hear that spirit, that soul inside of you. So that's the point of the of the engoma of of of the chant. And it doesn't matter if you don't understand the words. You want to feel the rhythm of it, the song of it. Okay, so here we go. So to start off with I just I just invite each person to feel their, their own heartbeat so you can put your fingers on your pulse points. And like you're taking your own pulse. And just drop into your own heart beat. Close your eyes. And I invite you to your inner world. To the world of your own heart beat. To that space inside of you. So don't worry about the outside world and what's happening in terms of politics and everything else. Turn your phone off. Connect with your heartbeat. And when you start to feel your heartbeat, I want you to have a sense of respecting your own heartbeat. See it as a being inside of you that is worthy of respect and of love. So as you feel that pulse, I want you to listen to it. Have a sense of listening and feeling your own pulse. And then the next thing I want you to do, I invite you to do rather is have a sense of your own pulse moving in front of you as if you are following an animal in the forest or in the bushveld. That sense of watching and its sense of listening. It starts to open your senses. I want you to also accept, accept your own heartbeat, accept the way it's beating. Don't try and change it. Don't judge it. Rather have a sense of oh there's my friend. And she's beating so beautifully. Because your heartbeat is connected to the Great Mother. This life you have is a gift. And, who's in control of that heartbeat is not you. You are not in control of your heartbeat. The Great Mother is in control of your heartbeat. In the same way she is in control of the lightning and the thunder. So as you listen to the heartbeat inside of you, you start to listen to the Great Mother, and the spirit of nature. And your connection to nature, is that pulse inside of you, is that heartbeat. So have a sense of it moving in front of you like an animal moving through the bushveld or moving through the forest. We'll just take a moment of stillness before I start chanting, and I'm going to invoke in, I'm going to invoke the izinyanya, the ancestors, the great ones, the wisdom keepers of the human race.
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:52:28] *Chanting*
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:55:16] So breathing into your heartbeats. Welcoming in the pulse of the Great Mother. That's keeping you alive right now. Come on. So thank you for listening, everyone. And thank you, doctor lot.
Dr. Lotte [00:55:43] That was just beautiful. And, so thank you so much for sharing that with all the listeners. And before we end, how can people learn more about you and how can people work with you?
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:55:58] The easiest way is just to go to my website, which is John Locke Telecom, and offer private sessions and mentoring, and I do monthly webinars and ceremonies, and then I do my retreats in South Africa. So there's there's different offerings, I, different sharing, which are offered to people based on on what people, you know, in terms of people's time and energy. So, so just come onto my website, have a look around, and if you want to meet me, then you can do that as well, you know, through my webinars or through private sessions. So thank you.
Dr. Lotte [00:56:34] So that's just wonderful. And we will put, your link in the podcast notes as well. So, go to his website and, and learn more about John Locke. He is just an amazing man that's bringing so much healing and, gratitude to to the earth and to the people and everybody on earth. So, do do go and check him out and check out his retreats as well, that they sound just amazing, those retreats. So it's been a pleasure to have you back, as a guest on the show today. And, then thank you so much for sharing your your knowledge with all the listeners.
Sangoma Shaman John Lockley [00:57:10] Thank you very much. Thank you so much.
Dr. Lotte [00:57:16] As we conclude this episode, I want to express my heartfelt gratitude for your presence within our community. If you haven't yet, make sure to subscribe, leave a review and share this podcast with friends and family. Subscribe to my newsletter in the show notes and receive new podcast episodes delivered right to your inbox. If you resonate with the interconnectedness of mind, body and soul and are motivated to embark on a journey of personal healing, I invite you to connect with me at DrLotte.com. Together, we can pave a path towards transformative healing in your own life.